In episode three of “In Dialogue,” CPSO EDI Lead and Medical Advisor Dr. Saroo Sharda speaks to Toba Balogun, a medical student at the University of Toronto, about being a minority physician-in-training and learning during a pandemic, his volunteer work to aid community access to services, and the importance of allyship and cultural humility in health care.
Balogun worked extensively as a Research Assistant with the Black Health Alliance, a community-led registered charity that aims to improve the health and well-being of Black communities in Canada, working closely on the “COVID Resilience Project,” which focused on the increased rate of infection in Black communities in Toronto. He’s also the founder of “Purple Hands,” a student-run homeless advocacy group based at Western University.
Related eDialogue Articles
Bias:
- What Do Disability Biases Look Like in Practice?
- Examining the Root Causes of Ableism
- Weight Bias and its Clinical Consequences
- Treating Root Causes, Not Symptoms
- Implicit Bias in Health Care
- Black Patients Matter
Medical education:
CPSO Resources
Additional Resources
- Purple Hands
- Black Health Alliance
- “The Perspectives on Health and Wellbeing Report in Black Communities in Toronto: Experiences through COVID-19” — Report by Black Health Alliance
Interview with Toba Balogun
Introduction:
CPSO presents "In Dialogue", a podcast series where we speak to health system experts on issues related to medical regulation, the delivery of quality care, physician wellness, and initiatives to address bias and discrimination in health care.
Dr. Saroo Sharda, CPSO Medical Advisor / EDI Lead (SS):
Hi, and thanks for joining us In Dialogue. My name is Dr. Saroo Sharda. I'm a practicing anesthesiologist, in addition to my roles as a Medical Advisor and Equity Diversity Inclusion Lead at the CPSO. I hope you enjoy this episode.
So, welcome Toba. Thank you so much for being with us today. You are currently in your first year of medical school at the University of Toronto, and you actually did some work as a summer student with the CPSO. So, it's really lovely to be chatting with you today. I wonder if you could just introduce yourself, and kind of where you are in your medical school journey right now, and tell us a little bit about how that's going.
Toba Balogun, Medical Student at University of Toronto (TB):
Yeah, for sure. Thanks, Saroo. So, as you said, my name is Toba. I'm a medical student in my first-year at the University of Toronto. I was born in Nigeria and I now live in the GTA. I moved to Canada when I was about six years old. Some things I really love to do — I love to play basketball, I'm really passionate about community service, and I love to be with friends and family. So, first-year has been going really well. Honestly, I just — being in medicine, and just getting involved in the curriculum and things like that — it just feels so surreal. And for me, I think the biggest takeaway is just really being in the moment and learning to kind of love the process, because it can be so hard going through medical school, and even just as a first-year. But just trying to remain present and remind myself that I kind of chose this myself, and this is the career I want for myself, has been important and has been a way to revive that joy for sure. So yeah, that's kind of how it's moving.
SS: That's great. I love that you talk about being mindful and joyful in the work, Toba — and I'm going to kind of get back to that a little bit more shortly — but I wanted to also pick up on something that you said about community service and kind of being embedded in community, because I know that before you joined medical school, you actually did quite a bit of work with the Black Health Alliance, and you did a project with them. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what that was about, and specifically, I think some of the barriers that you found that Black patients face in accessing certain types of health care.
TB: Yeah, for sure. So, the Black Health Alliance is essentially a community organization that tries to improve and kind of uphold the well-being and the health of the Black community, specifically in Toronto. So, the project that I worked on was a COVID Resilience Project, and it was started by Chantal Phillips, who's also a medical student at the University of Toronto. And it came about when the news that the infection rates were particularly higher in Black communities in Toronto. So, that kind of was the impetus to start the project. And what we wanted to do was, we asked the question, why? Why was this going on? And what was the reason for this?
So, what we did to figure that out was we held consultations with around 100 individuals in six different, predominantly Black communities in Toronto. And in these consultations, we asked individuals how COVID has affected their lives, and things related to their interactions with the healthcare system, the government in general, and barriers that they faced in their own lives. Some things that we found in these conversations with individuals was that there's a lot of different systemic impacts that predisposed people to getting to be interacted with COVID in the first place, and also just impacted their overall health as a whole. So, some things like increased rates of frontline work in the population, disproportionate rates of job loss in the population, things like crowded living situations as well, and people having to utilize food banks or public transit, are things that allowed people to experience more interactions with COVID in general. Some of the voices that we heard from the community though, was that there were just a lot of barriers for them to achieving good health. Things like community organizations running thin, so a lot of the organizations in these predominantly Black communities found that they had to take on a greater role — they, instead of helping 10 people, were now helping 30 people as a result of the pandemic. So, that was something that impacted on the health of the community adversely.
But also, we found that a lot of these individuals may experience some poor interactions with the healthcare system. There are things like anti-Black racism that was experienced in the ER settings and even in the primary care settings, people having to delay or avoid treatment in general because they didn't want to experience a stigma that occurred in the settings as well. So, that was — those are just some of the voices that we've heard throughout the consultations, and we put this, all these different voices into an impact report that's called, "The Perspectives on Health and Well-being in Black Communities," and it's posted on the BHA website. And in this impact report, you can kind of see all these different voices that we've highlighted and all the ways that COVID has really been impacting the Black community in general.
SS: You know, it just think it's so impressive, Toba, how at such an early stage in your careers, you and Chantal — and I've met Chantal — how you sort of went out into community with a very specific question and thought, you know, we are going to go and find out why this is happening in Black communities. We are going to go into community, we're going to talk directly to people affected, and I think it really speaks to that idea of being in solidarity with people when we do equity work, and when we do anti-racism work. And so, it's really interesting hearing you talk, Toba, about what some of those experiences were of folks and community, because it sounds like there was interpersonal experiences, like you talked about — somebody going to the emergency room or hesitating to go to the emergency room because they may have been concerned about, you know, a racist interaction with a health care provider. But you also talked about how racism shows up in systemic ways, right, and like, not enough community folks, in terms of community workers, being able to service the increased needs, how racism shows up in systemic ways through not enough PPE for people who are doing that frontline work, or how racism shows up in terms of intergenerational households who are living in crowded spaces. So, it's really, I think, important for us to understand that discrimination and racism plays out in all of those different ways.
And I think something that perhaps people are not always aware of, and I found this in our work at the CPSO, and it's even been learning for me, is some of the historical underpinnings of anti-Black racism, right, like they're specific historical context to anti-Black racism in Canada. And I wonder if that came up in any way when you were working in community, because I think that historical context affects the way that people perceive their safety as Black folks in our healthcare systems. Did that come up and can you speak to that at all for us?
TB: Yeah, yeah. So, it definitely did come up in several instances in the different consultations that we held, and it came up mainly when we were talking about interactions with the system in general, outside of the healthcare system. So, yes, we had these conversations where individuals kind of did delay and avoid care, primary and emergency care. But then also, there was just an element of distrust in not only the healthcare system, but also from the government. A lot of individuals felt that they couldn't really trust the messaging behind COVID. They felt that they couldn't really trust what was going on in terms of restrictions, in terms of all these different interventions to curb COVID. So, we definitely did hear some of those sentiments, and it definitely does stem from the history of trauma and anti-Black racism that's definitely gone on in Canada and throughout the world. So yeah, to answer your question, I think I kind of rambled on this, but essentially, yes, we did hear a lot of these sentiments coming from individuals that we did talk to. And as I said earlier, it did really stem from the historical trauma that's kind of been going on, specifically anti-Black racism, not only in the healthcare scene, but also from the government as well.
SS: You know, I really appreciate you mentioning that — the governmental piece and the health care piece, because they're so kind of closely intertwined when it comes to things like vaccine mandates, for example. And I think we've seen some narrative sometimes around vaccine mandates or taxing people who don't get vaccinated. But I think it's really important that we understand as healthcare professionals and as people working in health care that there are many reasons in different communities that this can happen, and in certain racialized communities and in Black communities, as you've explained, that there is sometimes a deep-seated mistrust, which then may lead to people not necessarily wanting to be vaccinated or needing culturally appropriate conversations with people that they feel safe with in order to basically have a conversation around vaccination or cancer screening or whatever it may be. So, I’m really glad that you pointed that out because I think as healthcare professionals who are not Black, we need to understand some of that history to really understand why there may be hesitancy sometimes. So, thanks for that.
Why don't you tell us a little bit about you now, in terms of being a Black medical student, and what some of the challenges maybe were leading up to getting into medical school, specifically as a Black person, maybe what some of the challenges are, that are specific now that you're in class? And also, what some of the joys are, like you talked at the beginning about joy, and I think it's really important that we don't forget that with challenge there's also joy. So, could you speak to both of those aspects, Toba, from your experience?
TB: Yeah, for sure. I'll start with the joys that I've experienced, now being a medical student. So, medical school was something that I've always kind of wanted to do. Even like, since elementary school, I've always had a love for science, always had a love for people. And I found that medicine really just intersected both of those different passions of mine really beautifully. So, just even getting into medical school feels just, felt so surreal, and I'm still kind of riding on that joy, now into my first year. But I definitely think that's one of the biggest joys — just that feeling of finally being in the profession, and finally breaking through. Because as we all know, it's a really tough profession to get into. There's a lot of barriers that people face, just getting into the profession. So, there's a lot of joy that comes from just breaking through initially.
But another significant joy that I'm feeling specifically now, being a first-year medical student, is just having that unique perspective compared to my peers. So, there has been a lot of advancements in diversity in medical schools throughout the country, but it's still very, it is — there's still a lot to be done, there's still a lot to be done. And I find that it's very fulfilling for me to have that different experience, that different background, and to inject some diversity into class through the different spaces that I stepped into. But also, there's a lot of joy, knowing that a lot of different allies are now carrying these different same beliefs that it's important to have equity and diversity initiatives in the classroom. So, it's really joyful to see a lot of people taken off that mantle as well. And also, it's just really nice to see other people looking like me, and it's just nice to connect it and feel safe, and everyone just vibing together as a whole class and as a whole group of new medical students. So, I think that's been some significant joys so far.
On the flip side, some challenges, though, are just kind of getting comfortable with sometimes being the only Black person in the room. I think that has been something that I've noticed since my undergrad years, and I'm still working towards getting comfortable in that feeling in being able to express myself in that kind of environment. But also, being unaware of the stigmas of people around you is something I think has been a challenge as well. Because when you're the only or one of the few Black students in the class, you don't really know how other people are perceiving you or perceiving your presence. So, it can be a challenge to navigate that. But also, I found some joy and, as I said earlier, finding a lot of allies in the program, and really sticking together and having that safe space to converse freely, and express yourselves freely, and things like that. So yes, there's been a lot of joys, there's been a lot of challenges, but I think I've been learning to navigate both sides very well.
SS: Yeah, it's so interesting when you talk about being the only Black person in a room, and, you know, I'm going to be talking to you shortly a little bit about how women sometimes feel like that, right? We've had, we have a lot more women in medicine now, but sometimes at leadership tables especially, we can be the only person in the room and what some of those similarities are. But I think that sometimes when folks have never been in that position — so, I'm rarely the only South Asian person in a room in medicine. At leadership table, sometimes, yes, I'm the only woman of colour, but often, that's not something that I've experienced. And so, I think it's really important for people to hear that that can be a challenging place to be. It can be hard when you're the only person, the only Black person in a room, or the only queer person in a room, or the only disabled person in the room, and I think it's really important for those of us who have privilege who've never been in that position, to really think about that and think about what that means, and as you said, how we can be allies.
Can you talk a little bit about allyship then, because I think it's really important and you've underscored how that's been important for you. What are some of the practical ways that you have found people have demonstrated allyship to you as a Black person, and what are some of the ways that you feel you would like allyship to be demonstrated? Can you talk about some of the practical ways that you've seen that happen or that you would like to see it happen?
TB: Yeah, definitely. So, as I kind of mentioned, allyship is something that is growing, and it's really refreshing to see a real group of people that are really caring about diversity and pushing forward these agendas. And for me, I think something that really sticks out when I see really good allies are people that not necessarily know, like the information or have knowledge of what the other people are experiencing, but they have a willingness to learn and have a willingness to listen, which is something that I find that is really, really important. So of course, we're not going to understand how someone that's disabled is feeling, or someone that's queer is feeling, but we all have to have that willingness to understand what that person is going through. So, I think that's something that's very practical that we can all do, and even to break it down further, I think it really stems from realizing what our biases are going into these conversations. I think first checking ourselves and asking questions to ourselves and really reflecting, like, do I carry these beliefs? And do I stigmatize other people? And from then we can recognize what our biases are. And then we can approach these different conversations with people that don't look like us in ways where we're trying to be understanding, we're trying to leave our biases at the door and learn from people.
SS: Yeah, I think what you're saying is so important, because it's so critical in our patient interactions, isn't it as healthcare providers, that we become aware of our biases. I think for a long time, there's been this narrative in medicine that the doctor is objective, and the doctor is neutral. And I think we understand now from all the literature out there that we all have bias. And really, as you said, it's about how do we become aware of it? How do we go into a conversation where we understand that we don't know everything about that person's experience, right?
So, this idea of cultural humility — how do you think we can do a better job at teaching physicians how to have cultural humility? So yes, we're not always going to know everything about everybody's experience. But you know, how do we bring that approach in with our colleagues, with our patients? I think medical schools are doing a much better job of that now. But what would you want to say to an experienced physician who's been out in practice for a while and maybe didn't have the same EDI learnings when they were in medical school or didn't have such a diverse class when they were in medical school? How do you think that we can encourage physicians to think about this?
TB: Yes, that's a really great question. And I think there's a lot of different approaches that can be taken to educate and encourage physicians to practice that cultural humility that you talked about. One I think goes back to what I was mentioning earlier, is to really try and take interest in people or take interest in patient populations. I think that stems from understanding yourself and understanding that you don't know everything, and that you're always continually trying to learn from people that you meet on a daily basis. Another thing that I think is critical is to promote that diversity and create a positive culture in the workplace. I think we all can, we can do the work by ourselves. And we need people around us to encourage us, to tell us when we're struggling, when we're doing poorly, when we've had a bad interaction with the patient, and we need to rethink what we're doing right. So, I think promoting that positive culture in the workplace, to allow other physicians around you to feel free in challenging you.
And also, feel free and tell you where you've done amazingly, and you've done well. So, I think those two things — really try to take interest in patients and really learn from your patients after understanding your own biases, but then also promoting a really diverse culture in the workplace, which stems from making sure you're employing people that don't look like you and pulling people from minority groups and things like that. But then also encouraging others, physicians, nurses, other health care providers, to really feel free in expressing themselves and feel free and calling out people that have had these adverse experiences, whether that's microaggressions or things like that. I think those two pieces can really help in creating a really positive culture and promoting cultural humility.
SS: Yeah, I love how you talk about both sides of that equation, Toba, because I think sometimes, especially when people think about the regulatory body, and how we deal with complaints of racism, for example, there are some instances where kind of a punitive approach is necessary, but there are a lot of instances where, actually, an educational approach is warranted, right? And a kind of, as you say, a calling out and a calling in, of how can we encourage you to actually think about this in a way that's ultimately going to be better for you, be better for your patients, be better for the community. So, that idea of psychological safety and being able to have these conversations and not assume that because someone's having this conversation with you, you're a bad person or a bad doctor, right? Sometimes there are bad doctors, but often it's really about education and conversation, and being willing to enter into those conversations that can sometimes be uncomfortable, but ultimately lead to some transformational change.
TB: Yeah.
SS: So, I want to talk a little bit more about you, and what are some of your career goals and aspirations. I know you're only in your first year, but have there been any particular mentors so far in your journey? Tell us a little bit about those people. And tell us a little bit about your goals at this stage of your career.
TB: Yeah, for sure. So, I have had a lot of mentors in the past that have been so fundamental to my growth. I'll start with my research mentor in my undergrad studies, Dr. Udunna Anazodo, who's currently an Associate Professor of Neurology at McGill University, and she's just really been amazing. She's leading the advancements of MRI technology in Africa, and honestly, throughout the world. So, for me, I think one thing that she's really tried to instill in me is just an attitude of continually trying to learn, and continually trying to push barriers and break doors. Because I think in her work, she's really encountered a lot of barriers to push for the agenda, especially when it comes to MRI technologies and increasing the research capabilities in Africa. I think there's a lot of barriers, in terms of financial barriers, but then also, people that just kind of don't think there's a way to do what you want to do. So, for me, it's really just been encouraging to see her breakthrough doors, and continually work on and try to achieve our goals.
Another kind of mentor for me has been Dr. Abe Oudshoorn [PhD], who's a Professor in Nursing at Western University, where I did my undergrad. One thing he's instilled in me has been an attitude to understand poverty, and to understand people, and to listen to stories. He sat on the chair of the London Homeless Coalition, and he's also very actively involved in the poverty reduction space in London. So, he's been really instrumental in increasing my desire to practice and to participate in community advocacy. And this is something that still carries on with me today, and something that I hope to carry on into my future career.
In terms of what I want to do in my future career, I'm not too sure. I'm currently juggling between surgical profession, internal medicine or emergency medicine. But as I tried to navigate that, one thing, I'm kind of sure on, in terms of career goals, is that I want to be the physician that you want to go to. I want to be the physician that listens and takes pride in listening to the wishes and the cares of the patients, but then also is very, very technically excellent. So, I don't know whether I end up as a surgeon or an internal medicine doc or whatever, but I think that's something that I think is core to what I want to do in the future.
SS: Or we may be able to bring you over to the anesthesia side, where you get that internal medicine and surgical stuff, and we can — I can try and entice you into anesthesiology, because we would love to have you, but that's just me being selfish. One thing, though, that it sounds that you're clear on, Toba, from talking about your mentors, and your previous work in London with folks who don't currently have homes and your work with the Black Health Alliance is it sounds like you very much want to continue to be embedded in community, and in community advocacy. Is that a fair thing to say from what you've shared with us?
TB: Oh, for sure. For sure, community advocacy is something that's really, really core to me, for sure.
SS: And can you just highlight for folks why it's so important when we're doing advocacy work and equity work, that we really are connecting with patients in their communities? Why is that such an important thing in terms of being in solidarity with community?
TB: So, I really got exposed to community work — I mean, I've always kind of been exposed to community work throughout elementary school and high school, through church initiatives. We go on excursions with my church and hand out food or just talk to individuals on the streets. But I really actually got actively involved when I started a community organization called Purple Hands. That's a community-based, student-run organization at Western University, and what we do is, as you mentioned, go into the community and work in solidarity with individuals, whether that involves listening to their stories and trying to promote the humanity in their stories on social media, or actively help in their day-to-day lives. Whether that's volunteering at a food bank, or volunteering to child-mind for low-income families, or things like that. So, I think solidarity with these individuals is extremely important. Because one, it shows that you care, and I think that solidarity piece for me, what sticks out is a passion for the work, but also commitment to go again, and to go again. And to not just see it as a one-off experience, but to allow those experiences to impact your own lives, but then also, obviously, provide hope and whatnot to the individuals that you're reaching out to.
SS: Yes, so you're really talking about relationship building, right? And it's not like, okay, I'm coming here, and then this is going to go on my CV, but this is actually a relationship that I'm building with community, and then I'm taking that back into my work as a physician, or for us at the CPSO, you know, reaching out to communities, when we're making policy, or when we're thinking about our complaints system, or any of those things, right? It really translates from this very deep interpersonal interaction that you're having with people in the community to actually then thinking about systems change, like those two things are very closely linked.
TB: Yeah, 100 percent, and I think it's not really a one-directional arrow, like you mentioned, the arrow goes both ways. Because through interacting with community and through listening to the stories of individuals that you're reaching out to, then you start to build an array of ideas in your head, as a physician or as a policymaker, of these different voices and these different ideas and perspectives that really inform your work, and really inform the way you interact with patients in the clinic, or the way the policy is carried out. So, it definitely is a bi-directional arrow, and you can't have one without the other. You can't be trying to affect system change without listening to individuals and local communities, and you can't be in local communities and not try to advocate for bigger and systemic changes.
SS: Yeah, I love how you just phrased that all, Toba. So, I'm going to just ask you a couple of questions now about the pandemic and how it must be to be in your first year of medical school, really exciting time, really intense time, but have to be now navigating online versus in-person, now you're online again. How has that been for ourself and your colleagues in terms of your health and your mental well-being as you navigate all of that, along with the navigation of the baseline, you know, workload of being a first-year medical student?
TB: Yeah, thank you for that question, Saroo. It's been really tough, honestly, amongst the whole student body. For us, I think one word that really sticks out, especially for me, is just "disappointment." And coming into the year, we really thought that, you know, COVID was getting better, we'd be transitioning to more of an in-person learning environment, and then all of a sudden, there's this huge wave four, and we're back into lockdown. So, it kind of feels very disappointing. But obviously, the faculty are trying their best to accommodate our needs, and we're trying to get through this situation as well. So, I think for us, it really is just rolling through the punches and trying to take on the workload as best as we can and move forward. I'm hoping, I'm very optimistic that we'll hopefully be transitioning to a more stable in-person learning environment soon, and I can sense the joy coming back in the student body as we move forward into that direction.
SS: So, last question, then for you, Toba. I mean, I know that as a medical student, there's certain stressors and those have been compounded by COVID and the pandemic, and I'm sure that you've heard about a lot of stress that has been on the healthcare workforce, on physicians. There's a lot of focus now on physician burnout and physician wellness. And I think what's important about that is that when physicians aren't well, we can't give good high-quality care to our patients, right?
So, how do you imagine you will, as you go through your medical school journey and your physician journey, how have you thought about maintaining your wellness, maintaining your joy? I love how you talk about joy. It seems like it's just such an important thing for you and has really helped you in your journey so far. So, have you thought about that? Have you had conversations with your peers? How do you plan to stay well through what can be a really grueling and demanding career?
TB: Yeah, I think that's a very important question, and honestly, something I'm kind of battling with right now as a first-year medical student going through the workload of a first-year curriculum. So, I think for me, one thing that really helps is to try and enjoy the process, and just try and be as present as possible in the process as I can. And for me, that involves waking up and having a mind of gratitude, and thinking about things that I'm grateful for that day, and centering my perspective going forward for that day. And then also having that short-term approach, instead of that long-term approach, looking at all the work to do for the week, but then trying to take things day-to-day. I think that's something that is helpful right now, and something that I'll definitely carry forward into my career in medicine.
And then also doing the simple things, exercising, being with family and friends, doing the things I love — playing basketball, reconnecting with old friends, and doing those simple things. Because they really do go a long way in maintaining your mental health and making sure that you can go forward and practice the profession that you want to do. Because as you mentioned, if you're not well mentally, if you're not well physically, then it's hard to provide that kind of care to individuals that need it. So yeah, I think, for me, to round it up, it really goes by having a short-term approach, looking at things on a day-to-day basis, really being mindful of my process and being mindful of my gratitude, and then also doing the simple things — working out, being with my friends, playing basketball, having those chill nights, and just being a well-rounded person. I think that goes a long way in maintaining my mental health and preventing burnout because it is, really is a long road ahead.
SS: Yeah, and I love that you mentioned very specific things there, like gratitude, because actually, the wellness literature out there shows that that's actually one of the single most important things that can help us with our wellness, not just in medicine, but generally. Sort of really thinking about what we're grateful for and what we have, and setting short-term goals. I think, especially now in COVID, where people's long-term goals have just become — well, we don't even know what's happening next week kind of thing. So, having some short-term goals, connection, so important, with family and friends and loved ones, whether that be virtual right now, but still being able to connect. So, I really hope that you're able to hold on to all of those things as you move forward in your medical school, and your surgical or anesthesia, or emergency medicine career.
So Toba, just to round things off then, we've covered a lot of ground and I think had a really, really great conversation, which I've really enjoyed, but coming back to all of those things we talked about in terms of your work with the Black Health Alliance, cultural humility, you know, all of those really important concepts that we talked about. What are the top one or two things that you would want people to take away as physicians about caring for their Black patients?
TB: Yeah, Saroo, I think this is a really important question, and I think it goes back to what we talked about earlier, is really being interested in the person that is in front of you. And not just saying that in a superficial way, but actually really trying to take interest in what is the person's motivation, what is their beliefs, and what do they want? And really seeing them as the person that they are and the humanity in that person. I think also recognizing your bias is really important to ensure that you're not making any assumptions going into these conversations. And then also trying to put in that work in trying to reframe your beliefs, whether that's having difficult conversations with individuals, whether that's going out into the community and trying to interact with individuals, and really doing that in-house work, and working on yourself. Because as a physician, obviously, you're going to see a very diverse range of people, especially in Ontario, and specifically Toronto, where it's a very multicultural community. So, it's really important to build up those — to realize your biases, and to take interest in the person that you're interacting with, and then promote that diversity and that positive culture in the workplace. And I think those things altogether will serve physicians really well going forward, and help promote a very equitable and diverse workforce, and physician workforce in Ontario.
SS: Thank you so much, Toba. Those diversity of perspectives and what we gain from them is really invaluable. So, thank you for your time. It's really exciting that we have folks like you who are the future of our profession, and we'll talk to you again, I'm sure. I think we're going to link your report and the Black Health Alliance, and very much encourage folks to look at that, so we will do that for sure. Take care and thanks again for your time today.
TB: Thank you for having me, Saroo.
Closing:
Thank you for joining us. Please visit www.CPSODialogue.ca for more in-depth discussions about health care.
